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Welcome to The Fire Inside Her. A brave space to share stories of navigating life transitions with authenticity. Using our inner fire to light the way and self care as our loyal travel companion. I'm your host, Diane Schroeder, and I'm so grateful you are here. The older I get, the more curious I become about my family's origin stories from my Cherokee ancestors who originally lived in what is now Tennessee and Georgia before the forcible removal along the Trail of Tears, to the immigrants who journeyed from Ireland, Scotland, and Germany. I am not alone. According to Google, genealogy is one of the most popular hobbies, second only to gardening. Imagine exploring your family history with stories and genealogy, and then discovering material for a true crime novel.

That is what happened with today's guest. We dive into the world of true crime and the art of storytelling with Pepper Ann, a 7th generation Texan. Pepper shares her journey of uncovering a gripping true crime story about a member of her own family, a colorful cook a colorful character entangled in a web of cattle wrestling, jailbreaks, and criminal escapades in Texas. You will hear about the twists and turns that led Pepper to write her first book, a courageous 13 year journey filled with hurdles and revelations with her goal to share the real story and reveal all sides, so that readers can make informed decisions regarding right and wrong and justice. Hello, friend. Today, we are in for a treat and I'm pretty excited, like always, to talk to my guest, Pepper Anne, and we are going to dive into a little bit of writing And with a kick, we're gonna talk about true crime. So, Pepper, welcome.

Thank you. And thank you so much for inviting me, Diane. I am so happy to be here today.

Oh, this is gonna be great. I can't wait to dive in. And because I always ask random questions, my random question for you is what is your favorite TV series?

Oh my gosh.

I can be more specific if you want me to be.

My favorite TV series. Well, this is gonna really date me. This is really bad. Can I pick something from a long, long ago?

Is that okay to do that? Absolutely.

I love Designing Women.

Oh, yeah.

I know. It's so long ago.

But I remember that show where I'm sure we're not that far apart in age. So, yes, Designing Women. Who was your favorite?

Suzanne Delta Burke. And I and you know why I started back on that show? The Sheldon. I love the show, Sheldon.

Oh my god. That is my favorite.

It is my favorite. Yeah. And, you know, Annie Potts is in that. Mhmm. So I thought, wait a minute. Let me go back to something a little earlier. And so, yeah, I Oh. Those are both my favorites.

Oh, yes. Now did you finish the series, the Sheldon series?

I didn't. And I'm wondering well, I saw where they got I hope I don't ruin it for anyone, where they got on the plane. Is the continuation going into next season of where?

This is the final season.

Okay. So I guess I haven't seen the final season yet. I don't know. Have they aired it?

They have, and I don't wanna give any spoiler alerts. It's fantastic. So that too is one of my favorite shows. We watched it as a family, and my husband and I laugh all the time because I'm like, this was our childhood. It specifically was his childhood because he grew up Southern Baptist. And

Oh, yeah.

He laughs when he he's like, oh my gosh. So fantastic. Alright. Well, switching gears a little bit from Designing Women and Young Sheldon to true crime. I'm just curious if you can share a little bit how you got interested in true crime, and we'll dive in specifically to your but just what was like, I wanna write about true crime.

Well, I've always been interested in true crime. When I was younger, I used to watch this is dating me so much, but, hey, I used to watch Unsolved Mysteries and then America's Most Wanted and 48 Hour, you know, all of those shows. Wanted to start writing, though, I wasn't looking for anything in the true crime genre. It wasn't until I uncovered a story or I heard about a story and I researched it that it actually put me in that genre. So that's actually what made me decide to write it. It was about a family member. Yeah. Well, I've always had a very deep interest in writing.

I've never I mean, I've always written papers and things such as that, letters to certain, you know, congress and congressmen and women and people and political individuals, and I got responses from a lot of them. I don't think that I actually took it serious, though, as far as writing professionally until my first book, which was about 13 years ago. But I've always wanted to I think when you have that passion, but you don't have if it's writing, you don't have a story, you don't really move forward with it. So you're always kind of sitting, waiting, and wondering.

Mhmm. Well, and I love how the curiosity kind of led you to writing the story. So then tell me, please, and those listening about kind of the high points of your true crime story and how it impacted, you know, how it involved your family member.

Well, he's a very colorful character. Let's see. I heard that I was related to a cattle wrestler, and I had to kinda do a little research on that because I'm a generational Texan. I'm related to ranchers, but I wasn't really around the part of how the whole ranching thing works. You know, everybody in the family goes in different directions. Right?

Absolutely.

Once it was better explained to me and I knew the concept of what it was all about, I started digging. I heard he was actually part of a huge jailbreak here in Texas and it made national news. And a tidbit that I got of information, it kept piquing my interest. So I started the research and I found out he actually escaped jail twice. He got involved in criminal activity, wrestling cattle in his teens, and he was pulled into it partly by his dad and then also a DPS state trooper. And that's what hooked me were those individuals and then how people started getting away with their crimes. What sealed the deal for me was that he when he got in trouble, this was in the eighties, it began in the eighties, there were individuals who paid his bonds and those individuals would not let him go. And they pulled him in deeper and further.

And he married a woman who was running a party ranch. She was blackmailing people, taking pictures of them in uncompromising positions. And she, like many others, had got away with their crimes. They were all tied in it together because they're all hiding and covering something they don't want anyone to know. So Bob ended up taking the fall. That's the name of my family member. He's a cousin. And then once he did, he was arrested and he landed in a Grayson County Jail here in Texas, and then he escaped with many others.

And it all ended in an 8 hour standoff against law enforcement. So it's one of those stories. It grabs you. Uh-huh. And there's so many twists and turns. And I have a lot of people tell me when they read the book, at first, they're thinking he's a bad guy, but then he got pulled into something. I have so many emotions in the book that people feel, which is what I wanted, you know? So it's a fat based story. All the articles I read online about the story, it didn't have the full story.

It didn't have, not everything was actual. So I wanted to make sure if anything is written about my family that it was done correctly. So

Thank you for sharing that. I love that. I love how your curiosity kind of led you down this path, and I'm gonna just make the leap. It was also a little bit of kind of understanding your roots and your family and like, oh, well, that's a family member I, you know, didn't share Christmas dinners with or whatever it is. You know? Like, oh, okay. So there's, like, a different motivation also because of the generation relation. Now I have a couple questions. What is a cattle rustler?

Okay. So a cattle no. That's what my mom told me. I was like, now what? What are you telling me? Uh-huh. Okay. So a wrestler is someone who steals, farming animals. Well, such as it could be horses. It could be cattle.

It could be sheep. It could be anything. Okay. And that's what the wrestling part is. But cattle wrestler is someone who steals cattle, and they either turn around and resell it or they keep it for their selves. Most of them will turn around and try to profit off of it. Yeah.

That makes sense. And then the other gal that he ended up marrying him, but what did you say she ran?

Well, she ran a lot of things.

She was busy. She was an entrepreneur of many sorts.

She was a A criminal entrepreneur. Yeah. So they actually had a party ranch together. Party ranch. Yes, ma'am. A party ranch. So what that is, it's a ranch where people can come out on the weekends and enjoy the lifestyle amenities of country living. And then she took advantage of that.

There were several other things that she was involved in that she oversaw. They went to banks once they got cattle. They were making money hand over fist. And because Bob had a record, a criminal record, because he was actually out on parole after they got married, they got married by proxy when he was in prison. So once he got out, they went to the banks and they were getting loans on the stolen cattle. Well, Bob couldn't get a loan. He couldn't do that, but she could. And so she was the one that signed on all that.

Well and I love that. And to be I told you before we hit record, I have not read the book. I read the first couple chapters and it definitely drew me in, like, just going as far back as your family lineage and the different generations and kind of how you got to Texas, I think is fascinating. And I think it's really important for craft when you're to give the foundation of why. Why is this important? And I love what you said that it's not always black and white. Everyone thought he was a criminal, but the more you dig, I'm assuming the more you found there's a little bit more than going on, and it's also it reminds me of Wicked. I don't know if you're familiar with that musical. It's about the Wicked Witch, and she was not always wicked.

It was circumstances and choices and kind of the world made her that way. And I'm not saying this is what happened to your family member, but it just I think it happens to a lot of people who get tied up in criminal activity in the justice system, but just becomes it's not set up to help people rehabilitate or thrive or get out. It actually benefits the prison system and the criminal system to keep people in the system.

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe that 100%. Let me say, when I first started this, and I didn't know about Bob. Like I said, he didn't know about most of us. He didn't know about the side of the family. So and we're related to him on his dad's side, so we're on the leech side. I reached out. I wrote him a letter.

He's in prison. He's surveying 14 life sentences, escaping the Grayson County Jail and all the charges there because they're trying to keep him in there. He was a habitual criminal because he kept landing back in there. So when I went in to meet Bob and I said, This is who I am. This is what I'm doing. I wanna write the story. He let me. Instantly, he let me because it was coming from a family member.

And I got to tell his story and our story as a family because we've been threatened and we've had a lot of people saying, oh, if you write this not a lot of people. We've had individuals make statements that if the story got out, they wouldn't have a problem making a car wreck look like an accident. So there has been a lot going on here, but Bob knew that I wanted to tell the story. And so he wanted it told. He wanted his version of events told so people would know that. I think that it's important to know that I'm not trying to sway anyone in one direction or the other. All I'm doing is putting the facts. It's just amazing to me that people say the exact same thing you do that at first, they were thinking one thing and then they moved in the other direction.

And that's exactly how as a family, we all see that. That's how we view Bob too. So yeah.

Well, good for you. Now how was that initial meeting? Like, I guess, I'm just trying to think, like, what do you put in a letter to him who's serving he's serving 14 consecutive life sentences? Like, hey. I'm your long lost cousin. I'd like to do this, this, and this. And how was that meeting? Was it were you nervous? Were you anxious? Did you have any expectations?

Well, that first letter I sent to him, I was I wasn't nervous. I was anxious. I'd never been inside a jail before, and here I'm writing to a family member I didn't even know about who is in prison. I sent the letter. I told him, this is who I am. This is how we're related. He, of course, reached out to family members that he knew, and he verified that I am who I say I am. And it was within, I think, I'm guessing it was probably about 2 weeks after I sent that first letter, he started responding to me.

When I went to see him, I wasn't nervous. I wasn't nervous because, like I said, it was family. I mean, I know I read everything about him, you know, but I don't know. As family members, do we see things differently? Yeah. Are we naive in a way? I don't wanna say naive. Just I saw something that needed my attention as far as telling a story somewhere I was supposed to be. When I went to the museum so visits are usually about 2 hours in TDC for if you're close enough. If you're within a certain distance, it's usually about 2 hours.

I got there and I was so late. And when I came in, he said, you're late. And uncles made the statement, well, what else did he have to do? He's just sitting in the big house. What's he doing?

Right.

But he was waiting for me to get there. Our end our visit ended up being about 25, 30 minutes because they had to close-up and everything. But I think I was almost overwhelmed from being given permission that, yes, you can tell the story, and that he trusted me enough to do that. And it was a dream I'd had of wanting to write. He was his story was the first one for me. So Bob gave me something that a lot of people are kind of hesitant at first, but he was quick to say yes.

What a gift.

I went into it not sure what to expect. And by the end of it, I was like, this has we're moving forward. I was yeah.

How wonderful. So I guess I do you still have a are you still in touch with him? I don't wanna give anything away as far as, like, the story and but you can tell me to pound sand and tell people to read the book. I'm totally okay with that because I do not know the ending.

Well, I'll tell you the ending. It's in all the it's in all the papers. I'll tell you everything but the very last chapter. Okay. It all ended in an 8 hour shootout, and I became very close to the victims who were held hostage in their home. And they view they view Bob differently because he released him. So I have a hard time talking about that family because they are part of my family. Yeah.

I will say this. They're named before Vincent and Irma Forrester. And I'm close to they've since passed, but I'm close to their family, their kids. Mhmm. And I would go visit them quite a bit. And Vincent would always tell me because if anyone was to say something to Bob, you know, that he's wrong, he shouldn't have done this, this, that, and the other, Vincent would say he'd call me on it. Be so hard on Bob. Mhmm.

I'll be so hard on him. So, yeah, it's and it has an amazing ending. So Bob and I, I was on the listing list for 13 years. The individuals that I exposed in the book, wouldn't let Bob go, and they continued to keep that relationship with him. Mhmm. Probably in the last 2 years, year and a half, 2 years, I was telling him, I said, I want you to take him off your list. I want you to take him off. And he wouldn't do it.

So I did something. I'm not sure if it was the right decision. I feel like it was. I had requested to have my name removed off his listing list.

You set a boundary?

Well, I did. Yeah. Mhmm. So I haven't had any contact with him since I've done that. I know he's mad at me. I know he is. If I wanted to get back in touch with him, there are steps, protocols that you have to take, and I haven't yet done that. Mhmm.

But, yeah, as of now, I haven't. Yeah. I don't want those people affiliated with our family. I don't. I I told him. I said, you had to take them off, and he wouldn't do it.

Mhmm. Well, I'm sure that's also part of, you know, that's his journey and good for you for setting a boundary. I can imagine that this book took you how long to write?

Took me about 12 or 13 years and the break this in, it did. People I was exposing kept hacking into my computer and deleting my work, so I had to rewrite it 3 different times.

Oh my goodness. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay.

Yeah. I've had a lot of people ask me, so what's your process of writing? Well, I researched and I wrote. I interviewed people and I wrote. So the whole time I was writing, I was continually researching and getting more information. Because when you're writing about crooks such as these, they're always committing crimes, and you always want to know what they're doing.

Right.

You need the most current information, and that's usually in real time.

That's right. So, yeah, I was yeah. I what I wrote, what my final draft, it had the most recent crimes of what they were committing. So maybe it was a blessing in a way.

So over that time frame, and even now with the scary threats to your family and the persistence and the grit that you have displayed in getting the story to light, how have you taken care of yourself through the process?

It's hard at times. Self care can be really hard for all of us.

Always. Yes.

I do various things. I try to walk. I try to exercise, meditating. I try to step away from my work and do something I enjoy reading. I try to do those things. I'm the kind of person that when I do that and I get revived, I'm ready to hit the ground running again. So I probably don't spend as much time on self care for myself as I should.

Nobody does. I hate to spoil that, but that's that's part of that's part of the premise of this show is I just want people to hear stories from women in all walks of life, navigating all different kinds of change and bumps in their journey and recognizing that, yes, self care is something that I could benefit from. And here's what I do when I do do it. So maybe inspire or hear yourself be like, yeah, I really need to do more of that. And for people listening, how important it is, but how hard it is. It seems so simple, right? Like, just go get a pedicure. You're fine. That's self care.

I wish. I would also say that setting boundaries is self care. Protecting the people that you love, that is also a form of self care. And, of course, grace. Grace is so important. We need that in every aspect of life, I think. But making sure that it sounds like you've given yourself the grace as you've processed all of this heavy stuff and then to courageously talk about it and share that. I just hats off to you.

You're a badass.

Thank you. You know, my editor asked me and even my literary attorney, when I got into all this, they were asking me questions because they wanted to know what we were up against. Because as a team, it's not just 1. You know what I mean? They asked me they said, do you wanna change names? Do you wanna use different names in the book? And I said, I do not. What's the point in telling the story if we're not gonna put the real names? So it's self caring. Right? Yes.

You're owning your truth. You're standing on your square. I mean, I think that's those are all really important things to do. So what changing gears a little bit. Thank you for being so honest about that self care process and, you know, that we all need more of it. So this is your reminder that you need more of it. Yes. What like, so now that you've written this one particular story on true crime, has it sparked your interest to dive into other stories?

Well, absolutely.

Is it like Pandora's Box?

Yeah. And there's a lot of them out there. Yeah. Right now, I'm working on my PA, Laura, has me writing several anthologies, little short stories to kinda get out there a little more. And I'm working on a crime fiction series and it's called Penny Pearl, Penny Pearl Mysteries. Love it. It's based off of actual events. I'm doing that kind of in the meantime while I'm researching the next thing.

I have a bunch of other stories that I'm looking I have one in particular, it's about another family member who walked on the right side of the of the law. And I'd like to tell the story, but it would be so many political lines that would be crossed. And I don't wanna put my family through what we just came out of, even though it wasn't political before. I I don't wanna put them through that. So I'm thinking of writing it as a crime fiction based on actual events. So

I love that. Those are my favorite kind. And I think as the author, as the creator, it gives you that little bit of buffer and protection, and yet also you can stretch with the creativity. I love that. I've often said if I could write a new genre, it would be historical fiction or historical, you know, something to combine both of what I love, like actual facts and true stories, and then see what happens. That's the beauty of story.

Yeah. You're right. It absolutely is. Yeah. It opens up your creativity so much and you don't know what road it'll take you down. It may could end up in so much more than what you originally thought.

Right. So if you could go back and talk to your younger 15 year we'll say 15 because 15 is a fun age as a young woman. What would you tell yourself? What advice would you give yourself?

I think if I could go back and talk to my younger self, I would tell myself to get involved in more activities, more get involved in more things that I was interested in at that time. And I think that when you do things like that, when you surround yourself around others that you have the same interest with, it builds your confidence a little bit. It kind of strengthens you as a person. And I wish that I would have been involved in a lot more activities, you know, track, running, you know, something such as that. And then I would have probably told myself, you can do it. When you get to a certain time in life, you have to believe in yourself more than you do, and you'll get there. It doesn't matter if you believe in yourself or not, you're going to make it. But it'd be a lot better if you believed in yourself along the way.

Yes. Yes. I think we should all tell that to our younger selves. I know I could have heard those words too. So what is next? You're writing some short stories. You're researching your next book. How can my listeners find you? What's the best I'll put all your links in that show notes. So if there's just a couple that you're most active on or how can I connect with you?

Well, usually, I have all my socials listed on my web site on the home page.

Okay.

I'm always there. I'm always active. You can go to my website, sign up for my newsletter, and you can email me if you wanna get a hold of me. It may take a little time for me to get back to you, but I respond. I understand that. My next projects that I'm working on, while I'm trying to get The Penny Pearl first book out, I'm doing the research for the I actually have a couple of stories in mind, so I'm working on those next projects trying to get them out. Yeah.

How exciting. And then in your spare time, guesting on podcasts to try to build your platform. So, yes, I support you. I know that this work is hard and I hope that you continue to take care of yourself. And I commend you on your courage to tell these stories that need to be shared because that's, that's how people connect. It's how people heal. It's how people it's all through story, and there's so much power in that. So, Pepper Anne, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I had so much fun.

Absolutely. Thank you for joining us. I am grateful you are here. If you're curious about how speaking to ourselves is a form of self care, head over to thefireinsideher.comforward/audio for a free recording on self care. Until next time. Be safe, be kind, and be authentically you.