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Since childhood, art making and creative expression have helped Maggie navigate a number of health issues, multiple life transitions, relationship challenges, and business growth. Her current creative diet consists of one canvas process paintings, writing, knitting, and constantly gathering inspiration through books. Maggie shares how she integrates her background in dance, art, and body psychotherapy to facilitate healing. The role of neuroscience and art and creativity, and how focusing on the process over the product can lead to profound self trust and self discovery. We discuss everything from listening to your body to the value of setting boundaries and, of course, practicing self care. Plus, Maggie talks about her love for plants, over 100 of them, and how small acts of self care can prevent burnout. Welcome to the Fire Inside Her podcast, a safe space for leadership, self care, and community. I'm your host, Diane Schroeder, and it is my privilege to be your guide on the journey to authenticity.

Well, hello, fiery souls. Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Maggie Evans, whom I met in a writing salon workshop. And because the universe is just absolutely magic, connected us, and now we are developing an awesome friendship. And I just had to have her on the show to talk about what she does and a little bit of her story. So, Maggie, welcome. Thank you so much, Diane.

I'm happy to be here.

This is gonna be great. My question for you to kick off this conversation is, do you know how many plants you have?

No. But I have counted before. The last count, I did have over a100.

Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I I'm around 50 ish, so I feel like I I can't I'm not worthy. Do you have a favorite plant?

I don't have a favorite plant per se, but I have a, like, a group of favorites. I love hoyas. Oh, yes. You have a hoya?

I do. I do.

Yeah. And they are so beautiful. Yeah. So I've been collecting different varieties. Nothing fancy, people. There's nothing fancy. But, you know, when I come across a new variety that I don't have that seems reasonably affordable to me, I'll pick it up. That's fun.

I have some that are doing that are really happy in my living room, and they're big. And those are my favorite.

That's exciting. My favorite is my Monstera. I got her when she was a few years ago. She was pretty tiny, and now I'm getting ready to repot her again because she just keeps growing, and I just I love it. Yeah. Those can get kinda unwieldy.

They are. She's a little wild. Big living room corner.

I I actually I had her at the top of the stairs, and I my dog was eating her, which is not good. So I moved her into the guest room slash future podcast room, so she'll be the backdrop when I when I get all settled in because she is. She's a little out of control, but I relate to that. So we, I would love to hear just a quick cliff notes version of how you went from wedding dressmaker to somatic art therapist and a little bit of your journey and story.

Well, definitely the thing that is the commonality and overlaps those 2 is my love and passion of creating and art making. So which I which I've been doing really as an act of self care since from as young as I can remember. That was just how I kind of, like, processed whatever was going on inside of me. As a young person, just being in my room and working with fabric and paint and whatever materials. You know? So I was sewing from a young age and, went to art school for college, undergrad. And, and then got a job immediately after graduating working for local independent bridal shop in Seattle, Washington called Cicada. So I'm I was working with brides and making wedding dresses, right after college. I didn't love sell the selling of the dresses, but I loved working with the brides and thinking deeply about the process that they were going through, moving from being single into, creating a life with someone else.

I was just so interested in, like, the archetypal transition that was happening. Then I went to grad school, got a master's in art therapy. I had a baby in the middle of all that. And when I graduated from my master's program, I went back to dressmaking because I could work for myself. I had a little kid at home. I needed a a flexible schedule, and so I just went back to what I knew, kind of as a necessity. And then, that was in Boulder, Colorado. And then, when my son was 8, we moved back up to Washington, Eastern Washington near where I grew up, and I officially started my career as a therapist, which is what I had always wanted to be doing.

I went from agency work into having my own private practice now.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. As a as a body based art creativity focused therapist. I love that niche so much, and it makes sense. So thank you for sharing that because you have always helped guide women through transitions. And now It's true. You know, that that's a big transition from single to married and, you know, then you going through some transitions of your own, becoming a mom, moving is always stressful and a big transition, and then transitioning to working with men using art. And so why did you choose the niche of working with women who are kind of in a dark place, and you help them put the pieces back together.

Yeah. That is the piece that I didn't mention that a lot of my work has been supporting women through their own transition of divorce, their big breakups, and more recently transitioning into new understanding of possibly their neurodivergence. I've been working a lot more lately with, women who have been diagnosed with, ADHD, autism, coming to an understanding about being highly sensitive at a at a later date in their life. I am passionate about that work because I've been through those things myself. I love it and why struggle was had a lot to do with what society, expects of women, in terms of being married, staying married, having children, being a stay at home parent. And so just having having had my own journey through that and some emotional, psychological abuse, you know, I'm really passionate about supporting women through the same kinds of thing.

What a gift. I wish I would have known you 10 years ago when I was at my my rock bottom and really needed to, you know, figure that out because what a gift it is to be able to talk to someone who's been there, you know, different maybe the circumstances weren't identical, but similar enough to be like, alright, sis. You got this, and here's how I can help you do that. So tell my listeners what exactly is somatic art therapy and, you know, how you use that to help women.

That might have been a term that I just coined myself. I don't I love it. Or maybe I heard I don't really know. Yeah. So when I went to grad school, I was really torn between body psychotherapy program, the dance therapy program, and the art therapy program. I had an art background. I also had a dance background. And so I was torn between the 2.

I ended up starting my journey in the dance therapy program. Loved that work. Loved learning about the body and it's everything that's connected to the brain and how we process emotions in the body. Really, that's where we do it. But there was something missing in that program, so I quit. I dropped out of that, and I had to reapply to the art therapy program and start all over. Oh, wow. So the graduate program, I went to school at Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado.

So what was supposed to be a 3 year master's program took me six years to get through because I switched programs, but also because I had a child in the middle of all of that. So and I really see myself as straddling both of those. You know, unfortunately, there wasn't a program that combined the 2 when I was in school. I've just been bringing those things together. In my work, I really focus so much on the body. How things feel, images that come to mind based on those feeling, becoming aware of and strengthening the witness function inside of our minds to observe everything that's going on, sensations, as well as what images are coming to mind, what colors are you seeing, sometimes even what words are are coming to mind. And then, oftentimes, it's a conversation about that, and then we might take it into some guided imagery. We might deepen into the images that are showing up as a way to facilitate feeling the sensations in one's body or vice versa.

And then when clients are open to it, then sometimes they take it to the page, either through writing or drawing or painting. That is why I call myself a somatic art.

I thank you for sharing that. It's so Yeah. I think, you know, I've had guests on the show before, and, you know, we talk a lot about the body and body love and, you know, sexuality and that form. But I think that it's really fascinating to also connect the dots to our body as far as, you know, as a holistically that when we experience trauma or heartbreak or loss or just transitions that it's not just our mind that experiences it. It's our entire body. So where if someone listening is like, that's really interesting, What are some of the ways that the body, like, talks to you without really talking to you? And I guess, for example, when I think of it, I think of my hip last year. I got bursitis in my hip for the first time. And my body, I feel like, was sending me all these little whispers, and I wasn't listening.

And finally, it was like, alright, girl. You're not listening. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make sure that, you know, you're in a lot of pain, so you stop and pay attention. What are some of the other ways the body does, you know, get your attention?

I mean, I think that's a really awesome example. I have my own example for I mean, I have many, many examples, but the one example that I'm thinking of is I was probably sick. I'm just guessing, my age. I was little, and I developed a wart, a big wart on my left big toe. And I went to my mom, and I said, what is this thing? She said, oh, it's a wart. Instead of taking me to the doctor to have it burned off or something, she got out this little book off her shelf by Louise Hay, and it was called Heal Your Body A to Z or something like that. And it it was a reference book, so she flipped open to the page with wort on it. And the book is about, it's a reference book, so it lists symptoms and then probable thought probable causes in terms of, a person's thought patterns, and then an affirmation or a new thought pattern.

Okay? This is what my mom did. So when I look up Wart, it had something to do with believing that you're not beautiful or that you're ugly. And then the affirmation had something to do with, you know, believing in your own inner beauty. Mhmm. Well, she wrote it down on a piece of paper. Every night before I went to bed, we said it together. And, I mean, in my memory, it was, like, before I knew it, the wart was gone. How? Without any other intervention.

Yeah. And so I have that book. I use it as a reference for myself, and I use it as a reference for clients. When they talk about things that are bothering them physically, I'm like, let's look it up and see if it resonate. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. But at least it starts a conversation around how is this connected to everything else that's going on for you, to your emotional experience, your mood, your relationships, how you're relating to your work in the world. That is a reference that I use all the time.

Well, you asked me how does how do things show up in the body? How does the body talk to us? Yeah. I think symptomology. Right? I mean, sometimes if we break our wrist because we fell off the bike, yeah, it's gonna hurt because we broke our wrist. But in the healing process, it's worth looking at what is the wrist do for me? What is the connection between my hand and the rest of the body? What am I not allowed to do, you know, to protect my wrist while it heals? How do I have to be flexible and creative figuring out how to do things when I can't do this? Like, all of that all of that is, in my opinion, clinically relevant.

Yes. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing that. That it gives me goosebumps. I that's really powerful. Yeah. It's very exciting. It is.

And good for your mom. Like, that is fantastic to introduce that to you at such a young age. I I think of 2 books that popped into my mind as you're talking. The first is The Body Keeps Score. That's I that book, when I read that, it really was my introduction into the body feeling in the somatic and, you know, where we hold our traumas and our pains and our discomforts and that it it's all connected. You can't just say, oh, I gonna put whatever in a bucket in my brain. It doesn't work that way. And The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer is another one that, you know, as you're talking about the broken wrist there's wrist.

There's a story he talks about where, you know, if there's a thorn in your arm, instead of just going in and removing the thorn, you build this whole elaborate, you know, thing to protect your arm instead of, you know, the discomfort of just removing the thorn. And I think that's a beautiful metaphor for also life and kind of doing the work. Sometimes we try to work around and protect one little part that's uncomfortable instead of going to the part that's uncomfortable and figuring out why.

Absolutely. You know, I have that book on my shelf. I've never read it. Oh. And I have read The Body Keeps the Score in bits and pieces. That's a dense book. But that book is essentially, you know, what I was studying when I was in grad school the first time around.

Oh, okay. That that makes so much sense. Yes. I The Untethered Soul, I listen to it probably every 3 or 4 months or read it. It's a quick read, and I just I I love the way he talks about it. It's just a very grounding book for me, to kind of bring me back when I get a little, you know, disheveled or

well I know this already that you and I are, we are book loving buddies. So if you're recommending it, I'm gonna read it.

Wonderful. Well, thank you. Yeah. That's so how does the next question that I have in my mind is how does it work when you write it out, when you draw it out, when you're moving your body to get your emotions out? How does that work and connect the dots and also help with healing?

That's a big question, Diane.

We could do a whole podcast till now.

Like, a whole I know.

Series. Right?

I mean and there's a lot of neuroscience also behind all of this, which I'm not gonna be very good at just kind of rattling it off. But, essentially, from my own anecdotal inner experience, it's moving energy. And it's getting, it's asking questions even if you're not asking a question. Right? You're being curious. You're wondering how can I move this out of my body? What color might represent this, like, sensation that I have? And what if I pay really close attention, what's the impulse? Right? What is coming from deep inside of me, like a vibration or a sensation through my arm and out onto the page. And what does that look like? And then we can see it. Right? Then we can see. Oh, it's this color, right now.

It has this shape. Let's get curious about this. Or just, you know, follow it. Don't let it stop at your hand and your fingers. Keep moving the energy out. Sometimes, it's just about moving energy. Think sometimes it's about relaxing. Right? Relaxing our brain and just kind of letting be allowing ourselves to be in a flow and a more meditative state of mind.

And so in my art in my own personal art making and the art and creativity work that I do with others is really focused on process as opposed to product. We are gonna end up with a product. Like that. Right? But the intention is not to create something we're gonna go hang on a gallery wall. Maybe that happened. Not usually. Oh, Bob. But it's about youth.

It's a tool. Right? It's using the material and a canvas, so to speak, whatever that is, paper, canvas, whatever the canvas is, to tell that story and to continue asking questions and being curious and let things unfold. And, like, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?

Please. Yes.

Fucking magic happens. You know? Fucking magic happens. Like, connections are made, images show up, things that seem otherwise, unconnected become connected. And it's just it's so cliche, but it is really trusting in the process and leaning way, way in. Like, I just got an email from Terry, our fellow, writing, facilitator, Terry Trispeccio, where she's talking about going for the jugular, right, on the page. And that's, I would say, the same thing with the art making. It's just, like, lean in, you know? Let it scare you. Let it scare you.

Let it scare you and show you what the foreign is or the thing you might not wanna be, you know, you not you might not wanna look at, but it doesn't stop there. Right? Just keeps moving. And art can be such a art making can be such a gentle yet firm guide to learning more about ourselves, making space for the healing to just happen.

Right. That that is such a beautiful explanation. And, you know, I I think everyone has their own medium, I'm sure. And I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it just, you know, because my brain is, like, going a 100 miles an hour right now. I would also venture that it's not just the hurt that you're getting out potentially or healing. It's also that reconnection with parts of you that you may have buried a long time ago. And I say that because if you ask kindergarteners who would hear who is an artist, they will all raise their hand. And then you ask teenagers or adults who's an artist, and, you know, it's like, oh, well, I don't know.

You know?

But my mom will.

Yeah. Some will. Some won't. And yet buried somewhere deep inside of us is that 5 or 6 year old that at one time felt they were an artist and that to create that is probably also really bringing that forward, moving that, you know, connection with other parts of yourself that may have been lost.

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought that up because that's absolutely true. Right? It's taking back or unburying the parts of ourselves that we trust. You know? That's another part of my work is what's really helping to foster self trust, which the art making and the right you know, the creative expression can do.

How does it do that? How does, creating art create trust within yourself?

The first thing that came to mind when you said that was the prize. When it when things feel like they've happened serendipitously or magically, you know, there's a surprise and it's like, oh, this makes sense or I love this thing that I created. That's often what happens. Right? Especially when people are creating something that they maybe don't initially like or in the middle of it they don't like. And if we can stick with it and move through that, then it's something you absolutely fall in love with, which isn't the point, but it's also the point.

Right. Well, it's getting through the mess. Right? It's totally done. It's like it's Yeah. Like, life is messy, and it's bumpy. And you can try to go around the mess for a while, but the mess is always gonna be there. So when you dive into it, it's yes. I think it's if I'm hearing you correctly, it's also sorting that out.

Right? Like, this is messy, but look. I'm creating something from it. I'm learning from it. Right. And I'm getting through it. So I guess if I can get through this mess, then other messes that happen or bumps or potholes, I have the tools to get through that as well.

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And what you're speaking about is metaphor. So, yes, metaphor is heavily leaned upon in this work too.

That is awesome. So when women since that's who you work with, and I'm sure some guys can also relate to this, but when you start to heal and start to trust yourself through art and reconnecting with your body and reconnecting with those versions of yourself that, you know, you may have forgotten about or wanted or tried to forget about, and you started to build trust, what does that do to your life moving forward?

I think there's lots of ways to answer that. Right? And it's gonna be individual. I think it just helped you to trust yourself again. Right? Mhmm. And so in any given moment, any given situation, there's a growing reference point for what feels right, what doesn't feel right. If something doesn't feel right, what kind of question could I ask to get more information? So trusting the body to give answers, trusting intuition, and just having a confidence building a confidence that you can respond to in any given moment Mhmm. In a in a way that is supportive to you.

That is a beautiful answer. What would you tell so so someone's listening right now, and they're going, look. I always make terrible decisions. I'm horrible at relationships, or I'm horrible at, you know, managing my money. That that's the narrative they've told themselves. And yet I don't trust myself to make decisions when it comes to, you know, we'll stick with the relationships and dating. What advice would you give someone I know without, you know, really getting to know, but just kind of general, the broad strokes of your body's probably whispering to you or telling you somewhere, whether it's in your gut or whether it's, you know, your palms get super sweaty, but not like happy, super sweaty when, you know, this situation arrives. What would you tell them to, like, here's a place to start listening to your body?

Yeah. Such a good question, Diane, and lots of entry points. Yes. However, given that given that we're just having this conversation and I don't know who you're who's listening in this moment. Right. I think something that's fairly accessible is to write. One, I think there's a willingness to do this, to enter in. Right? To cross the threshold.

Like, if something doesn't feel right, I wanna I wanna know more. And then creating intentional time and space to explore that, whatever that means in, like, carving time out of your schedule. And I would say, like, not, an hour on a Saturday. I'm saying, like, you know, every week or every day for a little bit of time, you sit down and listen to yourself. And all I mean by that is just sit in quiet for a little bit and turn sometimes I like to imagine when I close my eyes, I'm my eyeballs are literally, like, turning back in my head and and peering down into my body. Okay. What do I see? What do I notice? On a macro and a micro level. Right? Like, what do I notice? What do I not notice? What's yelling at me? Maybe it's a a grumbly stomach and I'm hungry.

But, like, what information is there? And then just write that down. We were just describe it, what it is you're feeling. And trust me, and I think Diane trusts you too. Right? We would agree that once you do that, you it will take you. It will it will it will take you. Your writing will take you. Yes. A memory will show up, an emotion will show up.

A conversation that needs to be had will show up in your writing Mhmm. In your writing. Right? So I think that is a really great place to start, you know. And then if you wanna introduce art materials, get those out and just get a sense of what color it is that's showing up. Put that on the page. Mhmm. Another way is this is just, like, so easy and basic, but I kind of love this idea is to work inside of a circle. Right? Like a mandala.

Uh-huh. Take a piece of you just take a piece of computer printer paper and a plate, draw a circle, and then you work within the circle. So the circle, there are boundaries and delineations. Right? Like, I'm gonna work on the thing that's showing up inside of the circle, and this is the container for it. So it's not gonna get messy all over the page or onto my desk. Right? We're just gonna keep it in the circle.

And it's say it's safer to start that way initially. So I guess that's two ways to jump right in. That's beautiful and perfect. And like you said, accessible. I I agree. I mean, I've been journaling since I was 14 years old, and that is how I have really, I think, speaks a lot to where I'm at now and how I got there. It was part of a big part of doing the work was writing my way through the work. And now that I I understand that and I understand that, you know, if I don't write, if I don't get it out of the paper I mean, I have so many journals and boxes because I've saved them all.

I'm not ready to get rid of them quite yet. Because there's so much story in there, and, it does. It just bubbles up, and it may not make sense. I don't always go back and read the work, and that's totally okay too, but it gets it out. So and I love the suggestion of the circle and the mandala because you're building it. You're learning how to set boundaries.

Mhmm.

You don't have to even give a reason. You just that was a boundary. If it doesn't feel good in your soul or if it like, you, you know, you start paying more attention to your body and someone asks a question, you get, like, that pit in your stomach of, you know, ugh. That I would assume is your body saying, hey. Tend to set a boundary? This might be a good one to say no to. Mhmm. Or be curious and be like, why why am I feeling this way? And then writing or drawing, it out. That is so helpful.

Another boundary is I'm gonna take this time for myself every day. Right? That's self care. I'm gonna close the door. That could be a boundary. I'm gonna set a timer. That can be a boundary. I'm gonna create this space for myself.

It's beautiful and necessary. So you mentioned earlier about a lot of, you know, what you do for self care. And I am huge about the importance of self care, especially self care always. Yet when you're really, you know, stretching yourself and going through transitions and, you know, when you're pretty raw and vulnerable, I think doubling or tripling down on your self care is even more important. So what else do you recommend or suggest or other self care tools do you have, for when you're in it?

Mhmm. Yeah. When I'm really in it or my clients are really in it, my first suggestion well, I'm first checking in about sleep, eating, movement. Are you sleeping? How are you sleeping? How much are you sleeping? We're checking in about that. That's a priority. Eating. How are you eating? How much are you eating? What are you eating? Are the things that you're eating nourishing you on a basic level? Sleep model. And, and movement.

Are you moving your body? That might be a walk around the block. It might be a yoga class every other day. Whatever. Those are the pieces, and I call it going back to the basics. Right? It's just kind of those foundational pieces to support ourselves. And sometimes, if not always, when we're in it, we like, we have to do that. Right? We have to go back to the basic. So those are the things that I'm checking in with my clients about and that I'm doing with myself as well.

Rest has become a huge priority in my own life. Indeed. Rest, not just having a good night's sleep, but having unscheduled time and working in at least a half an hour of reading in the morning. That's something that I do. Again, like we were talking about, saying no, even if it's last minute to some social plans or whatever. You know? Regular. Even if you don't know what you're gonna do with that time, it's just I need I need the space. So, you know, and then, of course, there's, like, all these other things that we can do, like ride horses or garden or paint, write, read more, whatever whatever else people find, it fills them up.

Right. Well, I thank you. That's but I love how you said the unscheduled time, you know, to kind of see what pops up. So important. I I think we spend so much time, especially, I, again, guilty of this since I, started working for myself of this every minute has to be filled. And that is not how I'm built. That is not how I'm designed. Like, that is not what brings me joy, and it's the fastest way to burning myself out.

So the unscheduled time and just slowly doing whatever fills your cup is the best form of self care you can do for yourself. And it doesn't have to be, you know, a half day spa package every month. It can be, like you said, 30 minutes of reading every day or saying, you know what? I'm just gonna sit in the quiet Mhmm. Before the chaos and recognizing that, man, I have not done that for a few days. I need to do it now so you don't burn yourself out.

Or, like, hiring a house cleaner. That's another one that I've done for myself recently, and it is something one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

Yes.

Again, right, it's like all different kinds of things can be self care, and it's relative to the person. And what you need.

Yeah. I love that so much. I love it. Well, thank you for unpacking quite a bit of stuff, and you're right. We could talk forever, hours about a lot of this and diving in a little bit deeper. My next well, I guess probably my last question is, what do you tell the younger versions of yourself? What advice would you give 18 year old Maggie that you didn't know at the time?

I think I would tell her that she gets to create her own map. That even that yeah. That she doesn't have to, make choices in her life because it's what it's what's supposed to happen for whatever reason. Right? You're female in the late nineties. This is what this is what they do. This is what's expected of you. I did create my own map, but I had a lot. I had a very hard time accepting myself and how I was doing things differently along the way. I think I would've I think I would let her know that it's really not necessary.

That's awesome. That is so awesome. And I think it also it doesn't matter how old you are. You're never too old to create your own map. Right.

You're so right. To create a new map.

Mhmm. Get to create a new map. And if you don't like the map you're on, tear it up and start a new one. So true. I think that's it it's important to remember that, especially as we're this, you know, middle part of life that feels a little can feel squeezing at times is what I like to call it. Like, it's just, it can be suffocating at times, and it's okay to create a new map if that's what you need to do. Thank you so much. I am going to put all your contact information into the podcast. And if any of you are listening in Washington, that is where you can work with Maggie.

And do you have anything else that you would like to add?

I do. I have a freebie for your listeners.

Oh, awesome. Yes.

So if they, if they go to my website, which is therapyforbohemians.com Mhmm. They can sign up to get a free resource list. It's called 39 Amazing Resources for Rebuilding Self Trust and unleashing that creative power. Perfect. All of my favorite resources, books, podcasts, other little yummy things that I use, I continue to use, I recommend, I go back to all the time, compiled in one place. Perfect.

I am going to sign up for it as soon as we get done.

Awesome. Awesome.

And I will make sure those are linked. Well, Maggie, thank you so much for spending your time with us today and giving all kinds of information. And I look forward to well, I'll see you in a couple of days so we can do our writing session.

Yes, Diane. Thank you so much. This was awesome.

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