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I'm your host, Diane Schroeder, and I'm so grateful you are here. Hello, fiery soul. Thank you for coming back to listen to another episode. Today, we have an extraordinary guest, Cheryl Ilov, who is on quite a journey from respiratory therapist to ballet dancer to ninja. Yes. I said ninja. At one time, Cheryl battled self doubt, but found her true calling in the disciplined martial arts world. Not only did she find peace and a resurgence of feminine energy, but she also learned the art of joint manipulation and mental strategy.

Cheryl mentors female trainees, imparting her ninja secrets and watching their warrior spirits rise. Cheryl is a badass, and she was the 1st female in Colorado to obtain a black belt in her martial arts discipline at the young age of 58. We get fired up about supporting women in male dominated arenas. Cheryl's path wasn't a straight line. We get fired up about supporting women in the male dominated world. Cheryl's path hasn't been a straight line. It's been filled with emotional and physical hurdles, but her resilience is inspiring. Cheryl Ilov is a beacon of strength, a mentor, and true embodiment of the fire inside her.

I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. Alright. I am really excited. Today, we have a very special guest. She is a badass and a ninja and a ballet dancer and a former respiratory therapist. So welcome, Cheryl I love. I'm so glad you're here today.

Oh, I am too. And thank you so much for that gracious introduction. It's very sweet.

It's all very true. So my icebreaker question that I would like to know about you is, what is your favorite candy?

Oh, hands down dark chocolate. I don't consider it candy, I guess. I consider it food.

It's good for you.

It is. It's very good for you.

Perfect. Do you have a particular kind, a brand that you like, or you

don't discriminate? Like Dove. I like Dove chocolate.

I've heard that several times from other guests.

Mhmm. Yes. It's it's quite good. The only thing I don't like about it is lately, every time I buy another bag, it seems like the bags are getting smaller. I mean, the bags are the same size, but there's not nearly as much chocolate in it, so And, you know, my husband doesn't really, eat it.

Mhmm.

But he doesn't like it as much as I do. He doesn't appreciate it as much as I do. So this is our little secret, so don't tell anybody. I won't tell. I hide the good stuff in the leotard drawer.

Because he's not going in the leotard drawer.

Why would he ever go in the leotard drawer?

Exactly. Smart man. Well, that's actually a perfect segue because before we jump into a lot of your story, I am dying to know, and my listeners are going to wanna know as well, how do you make the leap from ballet dancer to ninja in the middle of life?

So first of all, I love the play on words when you're talking about making the leap, and you're referring to ballet. Yeah. So, well, basically, it was not an easy leap to make. And as you you can see my book for those people who are watching the video, you could see my book in the background, which is titled The Reluctant Ninja, How a Middle Aged Princess Became a Warrior Queen. I did not go willingly. So going into martial arts was never the plan in my life. My father, did have a black belt in karate. He was a karate man.

He also had 5 daughters, so that's one of the reasons why he started studying karate. And he would always try and get me and my sisters to go to the gym with him to work out, and I was like, ew. You know, where none of us were interested in it, especially me. I'm probably out of the 5 of us. I am the girliest and the most delicate and the most feminine. That's that's just who I I am. So martial arts was something that was never in my DNA. It was or I thought not, and certainly never on my radar.

And it was one of those things that, you know, kinda just happened. So it all started when I met a man, and this was I was married already. But I was looking for a new acupuncturist, And I had my own private practice, a physical therapy private practice at the time. So one of my clients said, hey. Try this guy. His name is Mark, and he's really good. He's so nice, and he's really good at what he does. So I said, okay.

If she likes him and she was very picky, that he must be okay. So I'm I called him. I made an appointment. And the very first time I went to see him, you know, he's very nice, very cordial, and, he had his clinic right next to a martial arts dojo. I didn't really think anything of it because I didn't pay attention. So, you know, walking in there and, you know, he fills out, asks me all these questions and stuff. So I'm lying on the table in a pair of shorts and a tank top. And when he started putting needles in my legs, he got a very faraway look on his face.

And he said to me, you know, with your legs and my coaching, I could teach you how to kill with these things.

A very unique conversation with someone you just met.

Yes. And most of the guys, when they hear that, they always laugh and they say, oh, pickup line. I said, no. It wasn't pickup line. He was perfectly serious.

Mhmm.

But I'm lying there on the table going, oh my god. Who thinks like this? Let alone says it out loud to a perfect stranger. And I thought, I really need to leave. Where's my purse? But he had a captive audience because I had needles all over sticking in my body. The only way I could leave was if I wanted to get up off the table and go running out with the needle sticking in. I'm like, okay. That's not gonna work either. So, you know, I thanked him for thinking of me and my legs, and I says, that's never gonna happen.

You know? But, yeah, thanks for the offer. And it's so funny because every single time I would go back to him for a treatment session, all he would do is talk about the art of the ninja. That's the art that he he studied and taught and how much fun it was and how good I would be at it. And, oh, you need to train with me, and women are so good at this art, this art, this art, this art. He would never shut up. And all he would do is talk about the art of the ninja and his martial art. And he would even segue into topics like, you know, when you start training, you see the world in a different way and everything is a weapon. He says toilet plungers, you know, your Venetian blinds.

And I walked out as a statistic. The man was a sexual predator.

Oh my goodness.

And when you think about it, he's got the perfect cover. He doesn't even have to go looking for his victims. They come walking in the door. Mhmm. And I was so, you know, I was so angry, so upset, and so infuriated. And as a medical person, you know, I had been a respiratory therapist for almost 20 years. At that time, I was a physical therapist with my own private practice. I thought if this is happening to someone like me who's pretty savvy with a medical profession, imagine what he's doing to other women because I intuitively knew I was not the first person he did this to, and I knew I would not be the last.

And then, you know, that emotional storm, you know, poop storm, let's put it that way, that happens. It's like, why didn't anybody else ever report him? Because if they had, I may have never walked into that office that day. So my, you know, goal was, okay, you know, take care of myself. I was gonna report it, get some help, you know, recruit, you know, people who are close to me to help support me, get over it, and just move on with my life. And that's not exactly what happened when I tried to, you know, talk to people, try to get help. I it was kinda like I call it the patent slapping, you know, get back in there. That couldn't happen. You're making it up.

And that's basically what even my closest friend told me that it couldn't happen. I was making it up. I was exaggerating. You know, my coworkers, I was working in a clinic part time as well as running my own practice, and they're like, oh, man. You you repressed some stuff in your past. You need to really I mean, the stuff people tell you. It was much easier to say, you know what? Paste a big ass smile on my face, stuff everything down deep inside, and walk around like everything was perfectly fine and and perfectly normal, and tried to ignore the 20 pound weight loss that I had. It was a year later that I was actually retriggered, and that's when everything came spewing out of me, and it was bad.

When I think about it now and I look back, it really upsets me how frightening it was. I mean, I was really on the edge. And, you know, everybody noticed that something was off, of course. I lost even more weight after that. And I was just existing, and I was just desperate. The the vortex of hell called PTSD really is a nightmare. Yes. And I intuitively knew, you know, I couldn't talk to anybody.

I couldn't get help from anybody, but I knew I needed help. And intuitively, I knew that I could go to Mark, and if I told him what had happened, that he would not dismiss me or marginalize the experience. I hadn't seen him in probably close to a year because I stopped doing acupuncture. I stopped doing everything, because nothing made any sense. It nothing was worth it. So I did go to him, and I told him what happened. And, of course, he says, okay. We're gonna treat you with, you know, a shiatsu as well as acupuncture, Chinese herbs, blah blah blah.

And he was so comforting because he not only was listening to me, he heard me.

Mhmm.

And there is a difference.

Absolutely.

And I remember he was starting to massage my neck and my scalp, and he said, you know, it's no secret that you're one of my favorite people. Oh, I'm gonna get emotional, and I don't do emotions. He says, you're one of my favorite people, and the fact that somebody did this to you makes me wanna go and find him and hurt him.

Mhmm.

And hurt him so bad that he never gets up again. Wow. And, again, it's like, okay. Well, that's kinda scary, but oddly comforting.

Yeah. Someone finally, someone said what you needed to hear after the event occurred.

Mhmm. And after all that time, after you know, at this point, it was almost a year and a half. Mhmm. And I looked up at him to thank him, and he's got these kind of greenish gray eyes. It's the only way. It's a very interesting color. And I looked up at him, and it was like, woah. His eyes were like black.

Wow.

His eyes actually changed color. And this is something that I know about him. And from that moment on, he never gets angry or you can never tell, but I can tell because his eyes change colors.

Oh, that gives me

So anyhow, after that, his campaign to get me on to the mat went into high gear, and I just kept saying no. And he was begging me, please take some classes with me. You don't understand, Cheryl. There is an incredible healing power in the martial arts that can help you get your power back. It can help you heal from this, and he'd go on and on. And I would just look at him and say, I do not understand how hanging around in a smelly dojo with a bunch of sweaty men whose goal is to attack me is going to help me heal or make me feel any better. No. Thank you.

Mhmm. But, you know, he never gave up. He just would beg me. Please try it. And finally, it took him 3 years before he finally broke me down. And I agreed to take a few classes just to learn a few self defense techniques and to prove to him how much I was going to hate it, and then I was going to quit.

That makes sense.

Well, yeah. Right?

But kudos to him for seeing you and hearing you and supporting you in a way that was, you know, as a protector, not not as a you know, in the irony that he's a man and a man did that to you, but, you know, not your husband. He was someone different that could give you the tools to flourish and, you know, not knowing where your life was gonna be at 47 years old when you stepped into that dojo.

Mhmm.

Now I just I I have so much admiration for that. So thank you for sharing that and the courage it took for you to take that leap. And I love that you would go to ballet class first and then head on over to the dojo because you wrote a book about it, and I'm I highly recommend this book. I'm I'm in the middle of reading it, and it's fantastic. What struck me right away is the parallels between being becoming a ninja and the fire service, what you had to encounter with all of the men, but even more with the women who weren't very kind. Mhmm. Mhmm. So one of the things, and I'll just Mark talked about was, oh, there's women that come to the dojo.

Just just come on by. So wouldn't would you mind sharing a little bit about that, your experience with that? Because it's funny, not funny, but it's also, you know, and your legs. So if you could tell the story about not only are was he accurate about your legs, but how you really established yourself as, you know, not just this petite little princess in the dojo. Pretty quickly, your legs were weapons.

Mhmm. Okay. So first of all, thank you for calling me courage courageous and how much courage it did take to walk in there. I will have to say it wasn't out of courage. It was out of sheer desperation because I was truly desperate. I was at my wit's end. And, you know, I still, to this day, do give Mark credit for never giving up and keeping it, you know, keep you know, come on. You can do this.

Let's just just take a few classes. Because it's really a toss-up which one of us is more stubborn, me or him. And I think he won the contest. He's because he never did give up. And it's really funny, a lot of people would say will say to me, even now at this late date, oh, he really saw something in you. He knew that you were gonna be, you know, his first female black belt. And he knew that you were this warrior, and I I laugh so hard. I almost pee my pants because it's like, no.

He just, you know, was trying to help a person that he cared about who was really hurting and was in an awful lot of pain. So he did assure me, don't you worry now. There's plenty of females, and, you know, I've got plenty of women students, and a lot of them are kinda high ranking, and they would be happy to take you under their wing and teach you what's like to be a female ninja. So don't you worry about that. Well, I still worried anyhow. I worried about everything. And and then he says, oh, and there's this one woman, Trish, and she's a yellow belt, and she's a dancer. And I think you 2 are gonna get along famously.

And I'm going, wow. Well, you know, you're gonna be great friends. And I thought, well, I already have enough friends. I don't need anymore, but I don't have any friends. You know, I have friends who are dancers, but I don't have a friend who's a dancing ninja. So this will be kind of interesting. So my very first class when I show up, you know, I'm looking for all of the women. There's no women around, and I'm going, okay.

This is really uncomfortable, and, of course, I just come from ballet class. I still have my hair in a little bun and everything. So I grab you know, I have my little gi, and I walk into the ladies' dressing room, and there is a woman in the dressing room. And I said, oh, yeah. I gave her my big smile, my most winning, captivating smile, and I said, hi. I'm Sheryl. You must be Trish. Marks told me all about you.

And I extended my hand to shake her hand. She turned and she looked at me, looked at my outstretched hand, turned around, and walked out of the dressing room.

Wow.

And I thought, oh, well, So much for being great friends and so much for my charm and my captivating smile. And so I'm trying to figure out my ghee, and, you know, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, there's all these these tags and these ropes and these ties in a way that you're supposed to, you know, can't do that. I used to be responsible for life support equipment, but I couldn't handle a giap uniform. So all of a sudden, she comes back into the dressing room, and I said, oh, excuse me, and I smile again, beautiful smile. And I say, would you please help me with this? I I this is my first time, and I don't know how, you know, to to tie these, and I don't know how it works. And she goes, I can't even tie my own, and walked out of the dressing room. And it's like, well, you're wearing yours and you've got the belt tied.

So I just figured out a way to wrap the top around me and kinda tie the belt and let it hang down like this rakish angle. It looked really kinda pretty, kinda like I would do with a ballet skirt, and I just walked out and thought, okay. Here I am now. And the worst thing was Mark was nowhere in in to be seen.

Oh, no.

He wasn't even on the floor. So there's me and this charming Trish flirting with all the men, and I'm like, where the hell is Mark? It's taken him 3 years to get me to take class with him, and he's nowhere to be found. So I asked one of the guys. I oh, one of the guys came over to me. I mean, they were very nice at first, introduced themselves. This one guy introduced himself as Wes, and he was a black belt, and he said, we usually warm up a little bit before class, so would, you know, we stretch. Would you like me to show you a few stretches? And I just said, no. I think I'm okay.

I know how to stretch. And so he says, well, if you need any help, you just ask me. And I said, okay. So he walks away, and I just slid it into a perfect split.

Mhmm.

And then it was like, oh, man. This feels so good. So I'm doing forward bends, backward bends, and then I rearranged my legs into, like, a straddle split, like a Chinese split, and then I just did a forward bend, and I'm laying on the mat, and all of a sudden it was like got awfully quiet. So I lifted my head and I looked and everybody was staring at me. And one of the guys said, wow. Where'd you learn to do that? And I said, oh, well, I just came from ballet class, and they went, oh, okay. And so I was like, oh my goodness. You know, I thought I was gonna blend right in by doing some stretching, but I didn't.

Mhmm. So then later that same day, you know, my Mark finally showed up and class started, and it was just so ridiculous. All of this, you know, bowing and scraping, and, I mean, it was just dumb. And all of the rituals of of, you know, starting a class, and then Mark showed us, you know, a technique for us to work on. And I didn't even watch it. I had my eyes closed. I was covering my eyes because all you could hear was, like, flesh pounding flesh and screams and yells, and the sound of a body hitting the mat, and I'm going, I am so out of my comfort zone.

Yes.

And I knew where the back door was. And so, you know, Mark said, okay, everybody, pick a partner and play. And I thought, if this is his idea of playing, I would hate to see him fight. So I was thinking about heading out the getting off the mat and going out the back door when I saw that same black belt walking toward me. And he looked at me and he bowed, and he said something in Japanese. So I just stared at him because I was like, I have no idea what to do. And he did it again. He bowed and said, you know, and I just looked around to, you know, where's Mark? Tell me what to do.

He was, you know, way at the end of the room. So I just did what came naturally. So I just picked up the corners of my gi like a skirt, and I did a little curtsy, and it said, enchanté then he looked at me like, okay. What am I supposed to do now? And finally, he just looked at me like he was gonna say something, and he says, you know, he just kinda shook his head and he goes, okay. I want you to kick me. And I said, but I don't wanna kick you. And he says, but this is the technique we're working on. So go ahead and kick me.

And I'm twirling my ponytail, and I says, no. I don't wanna kick you. I've never kicked anybody in my life, and I'm not gonna start now.

Mhmm.

And he's smiling at me, and you could see that he was just thinking, isn't she cute? And he said, oh, then I said, besides, I don't wanna hurt you. And then his smile got real big. Right. And he said, don't worry. I can take care of myself. You can't hurt me. It's okay. Go ahead and kick me.

So then I'm looking at his belt, and I'm looking below the belt. And I'm thinking, man, I don't wanna kick him in the soft spots. And I says, boy, I'm afraid I don't wanna kick you, you know, below the belt, and he's smiling again because I don't want that either. Go ahead. You go ahead and kick me. It's okay. Everything's gonna be fine. And I was like, I don't know how to kick.

But he kept insisting, so I did the only thing I knew how to do. I lifted my right leg up and I just thrust my pointed toes deep into his abdomen as hard as I could as if I was leaping across a ballet stage doing a grand jete. Mhmm. Well, I guess I could hurt him. So he flew backwards, fell on his butt, and he's gasping for air. And he looked at me and he said, that was pretty good. And then he started to get up and he's still holding his stomach. He goes, actually, that was really good.

Where did you learn to kick like that? And all of a sudden, you could see Mark had watched the whole thing, and he came over, and he looked down at me, and he said, how many years of ballet? And I said, 27 because I only had 27 years logged in at that point. And he just looked at me, and he nodded, and he looked at Wes and he said, don't let the package fool you. She's a lot stronger than she looks.

Wow.

Mental head smacking moment. Yep. Yep. And this is little for all of you listening out there. Years a lot stronger than you possibly know.

Absolutely.

Number 2. You have life skills that can be applied to a lot of different situations that you don't even realize. Who knew that all of those years of ballet training would translate into me taking down a black belt on the 1st day of class.

And that's just day 1. You continued showing up even though you were reluctant and you weren't going to. You were just gonna, you know, you weren't gonna promote up the the belt ladder, for lack of better terms. So if you wouldn't mind clarifying that just for myself and my listeners. So everyone starts with a white belt. And then how does it how do you ascend to the level of black belt? And I just wanna make the quick reminder. You were 47 at the time. Correct?

Yes.

So you're the age I am now, and that to me seems so incredibly overwhelming and scary and terrifying. And I just again, I will call it courageous, and you can call it stubborn, whatever you want. We can agree to disagree that, you know so you start with a white belt. So what was the journey like to get to a black belt? And you mentioned you were the 1st woman in Colorado to be a black belt. And with this particular style of martial arts, the ninja style, how how was that journey for you, and how long did it take?

Oh, wow. Well, there's a lot to unpack there. And and every dojo is different, you know? So if if, people who are listening to this have taken either karate, taekwondo, karate mcgaw, you know, any other martial art. They're all different. And we like to you know, we're pretty special because we're, you know, air quotes, ninjas. And we belong to a federation that was started in LA, And so there's probably a total of 5 dojos, mostly in the western part of the country. Now there's, you know, one in Texas Louisiana. So we're a very small group, and we have our head honcho, the one who created, you know, this federation.

And so we're kind of like at his beck and call. So he he sets the standards, and he sets the standards very, very high because he wants his students to be very good at what they do. We're not fighters. We're not competitors. We're not when people think of warriors, they think of, you know, like aggression, conflict, fighting, warfare, and that is not the definition of a warrior. The warrior, is a very gentle, loving, compassionate person with a, you know, a loving heart, a compassionate spirit. We, are very gentle. We love our families, our communities, the environment, everything in nature, and we do not want to fight.

That's the last thing we wanna do. Mhmm. But don't push the envelope.

Right.

Right. Because we have we have tools. So like you said, when you're, you know, going for going up the ranks, when I first started, I had absolutely no intention of ever getting a black belt. I mean, a lot of people when they sign up for, you know, our training, you know, all the I wanna be a black belt, and that's I just want that black belt, and that's all they want. I did not want the black belt. I didn't even want a yellow belt. I didn't even want the white belt, but it came with the uniform, so I had to take it. Thought it was crazy because people were so obsessed with testing and climbing the ranks.

And it's like, I went into this. I am never gonna test.

Mhmm.

I'm just gonna learn a few techniques, get out of here in a month, and move on with my life, which really surprised me because a month later, I shocked myself when I found myself writing a check for the next month's tuition. And I thought, okay. Give it another month. Let's let's see what happens. Before I knew it, I had been in the dojo for 3 months, and there was one guy in particular that I was very, very fond of. And it was really hard for me to try and build relationships because these are men.

Mhmm.

And I did not know how to communicate with them. I hadn't had male friends, you know, since I had been in college. And, you know, they speak a different language, and they're looking at me like I just landed from Mars because, you know, I would excuse myself to step off the mat to refresh in my lipstick, or, okay, we have to stop for a moment of having a hot flash, and they never had a woman like that who was, you know most of the women that would come to the dojo were like, oh, wow. I'm gonna kick ass and take names, and that just was not me. I just wanted to look to see another day, and that was it.

Mhmm.

So one guy in particular, Vince, he was actually a massage therapist. He was quite good. I went to him for a while. He started badgering me, and he said, you know, you know this stuff. You need to test. Test for your yellow belt. And I said, no. That's never gonna happen.

Well, he kept badgering me until finally, it's like, will you shut up and leave me alone if I promise to test? And he said yes. And I said okay. So I did I took I did my first test. It was just, you know, I was the only one testing in front of Mark and one of the black bells belts watch the whole experience. I thought I was gonna either faint or or wet my pants or vomit, but I got through it, and I got my yellow belt. And it was really bizarre because I never wanted that belt.

Mhmm.

But the next day when I went to the dojo and I got that belt and I'm tying that belt around my my middle, I just burst into giggles, and I would giggle and giggle and giggle. And by this time, you know, Trish was gone. She was long gone, so I had the dressing room to myself. And I would try and control myself, and I'd try and step out of the dressing room, and I'd just start laughing and giggling again. I was like, I don't know why I'm laughing because it's not like this is important to me because it wasn't.

Right.

But, obviously, it was. It was a big deal.

Yes. Absolutely.

So I just, you know, stepped onto the mat, picked up where we left off, you know, the day before, and started learning my new material for the next level. Not that I was gonna do anything with it, but I just I'm here. Might as well learn. And so 3 months later, that same guy said, you know what, Cheryl? I think maybe you ought to test again. Nah, I don't want to. I don't want to. And he started bugging me and nagging me, and it's like, okay. Just shut you up, I'll test.

So I did. And then about 3 months later, I said to myself, you know what? I know this new material already. Maybe I should test for my next level.

Mhmm.

And from then on, you know, I started slowly climbing the ranks. And every time I got a new belt level, it was a surprise not only to me, but to everybody else. And once I got to the level of about green so at the time, we had the white belt, two levels of yellow belt, then two levels of green belt. No. Orange belt. And then it went to green belt and then blue belt. So by the time it was the orange belt, for the second level orange belt, it was a comprehensive ex a comprehensive test. So you were tested for everything that you, you know, were shown from the moment you stepped into the dojo.

So that was a very big deal because it was a comprehensive test.

Yeah.

And I was watching, and I was thinking, I think I can do that. And there were 2 guys who were testing for that level. And I asked to watch, and they did a horrible job. Mark actually had to stop the test because they obviously hadn't prepared. But as I was watching them, I was going through the material in my head, and I realized I know all of this stuff. So a few days later, you know, the guys were humiliated, and Mark said they probably won't come back because they get really embarrassed if that happens. They just don't come back. 1 of the guys came back, and I said, you know what? I have a plan.

If you pair up with me and we train together, in 6 weeks, we can test, and I can guarantee you're gonna have a spectacular test. We'll test together. We'll train together. He's looking at me going, you've gotta be kidding me. And he's eyeballing me up and down, and, you know, I was well, like, I'm not that big of a person. And then he started looking at my face, and I was thinking, he's probably trying to figure out how old I am. So I gave him a big smile. My crow's feet are just, you know, all wrinkling.

And he says, well, what the hell? I have nothing else to do. So we trained for 6 weeks, and we tested together, and we did a spectacular test. And from that moment on, we started climbing the ranks together, and we were training partners for the next couple of years until he finally quit.

Oh my gosh. That's awesome. So how many years did it take you? Because I assume that the first couple ranks might go pretty quickly, but then once you get in the higher ranks, it takes a little bit longer. And you also had to work with the sensei in LA, which was a completely different experience. Yes. You were how old when you finally got your black belt?

I was 57. So it took me 10 years. And, you know, a lot of people think, oh my god. Why did, you know, why did it take so long? In certain arts and certain schools and certain federations, you can get a black belt in a year or 2. In ours, if you are very, very dedicated, if you work a lot at home on your own doing Quihon, if you are at the dojo, you know, at least 5 days a week, you can do it in as few as 8 years.

Wow.

Because that is, again, it's the standard that, you know, the the head sensei puts on everybody. He doesn't want people just thinking, you know, I know this stuff, and it's not because he's so tough, which he is. Yes. It's because he really wants his students to excel and to be able to protect themselves if they ever had to. So that's why, and he just sets really high standards. He still does. He's 81 years old and, you know, still training and still teaching students. So every time, you know, he hasn't come to town to Denver in a while, but when he does, it's like, you know, shape up, guys, because Sensei's coming.

That is incredible, and I have a couple questions to ask. How has your husband embraced this throughout your journey? I don't know him, but I'm assuming he's a very supportive man. And in my opinion, without knowing him, he has to be a very strong man to be totally cool with his badass wife kicking everyone else's ass. So how how was he with this whole is with this journey?

Well, you know, at first, very, very supportive. And at first, you know, he was all in, and, you know, he knew if I if I trusted Mark, you know, he was fine with it. It was probably just a few weeks I'd been training maybe for less than a month. And I came home, and I said, you know, Mike, I really think that this is helping me. I think that it's making a difference. And he said, you know, I can see it in you. He says, you look happy or you look lighter. You look, you know, you look more like yourself.

And he says, I think it really is doing you a lot of good. And then I just looked at him and I says, you know, you know what the best part is? And he said, what? And I said, it's a great way to meet men. And he said, whatever makes you happy, honey. So it's like, okay, my personality was coming back, my natural snark was coming back, And then, you know, I would come home and I would say, you know, grab my wrist. I learned something today, and then, you know, he just kinda smelled. My husband's 6 foot 4.

Oh my goodness. Okay.

Okay. And he's definitely by no means a small man. He's very big and, you know, beefy. He was an athlete, so he played a lot of, he played college basketball, and he played a lot of softball and baseball. So and even some football in high school. So, yeah, he's a big guy. So he would grab my wrist and I'd, you know, do the techniques and stuff and everything. And it was probably maybe in the 2nd or 3rd month that he says, I don't wanna do this anymore.

That's starting to hurt. Okay. And, you know, if I could do that with him. So then it was like, you know, I support you a 100%, but you're not doing this, practicing on me. And people would say to him, they'd say, you know, how are you with this? You know? She's learning all of this stuff. And he says, well, I don't worry about it because I can still outrun her. So that was his until his knees got really bad. And it was like, oh, I have to really behave myself.

But he was so supportive. He get really excited anytime I, you know, did something, you know, got a new belt level. And then think about this. And for your listeners, you know, especially if you have men listening to this, You know, the first time I said, I'm gonna go to LA because it took Mark several years to convince me to go to LA. That was a journey that we did every January. You know, people from the dojo would go to LA and train with Sensei. It was like this big deal. It was his birthday, and we'd have special testing done then.

And I says, I think I'm gonna go. And he says, okay. And, you know, drove me to the airport, you know, dropped me off, picked me up when I came home. But that's the kind of person he is. And I know a lot of men and even one guy that I used to be very close to said, I would never let you do that. And I said, exactly. Yeah. Which is why we never worked out.

Exactly.

He was so proud, and he was so excited, and but he never saw me really in action until I tested for my 2nd degree brown belt. He had come my daddy would come every winter to go skiing with us.

Okay.

And, you know, 1 year when he came and I was still a yellow belt, they stopped by just to watch a little bit because my dad was interested, of course, of course. And, you know, me of all people doing martial arts, nobody could wrap their head around that. And so they came and they stayed for about 5 minutes and then left. Steady really didn't see very much. So he came to watch my 2nd degree no. It was my 3rd degree brown belt test. And not only did he come, one of my ballet friends came to watch the test. 1 of my clients came to watch the test.

There were a lot of people watching, and it was a pretty darn good test. And after the test, you have your a lot of your classmates or fellow students are watching too. And you have all of the black belts. There were only, you know, sensei and 2 other instructor level black belts who were watching the test and critiquing it. So they would be, you know, judging you. And so at the very end, when it's over, you know, you bow out and you kneel and say, and Sensei gives you, like, a critique of how you did. And then the other 2 black belts will chime in as well. And then when they're done, Mark looked at me and he says, do you have any questions? And I said, yes.

I would love to know what my husband thinks right now. Oh, wow. 20 pair of eyes turned and looked at him. And his jaw was just I mean, his mouth was open, and he took him a while to answer, and he says, I had no idea she could do that. And then Mark just look, you know, the sage, you know, he nods very seriously. He goes, you never have to worry about her again.

So how has your journey you started in a a rough spot, and there was a lot going on. How did the journey of becoming a black belt ninja work out as far as the healing process?

You know, I would have to say it was probably you know, it was not a smooth straight trajectory.

Linear. There wasn't a checkbox, like a checklist. Damn it. No. I'm always looking for that healing checklist. Like, let me find it, please.

Hello. I was looking for it too. It's like, doesn't it make didn't this come with a ghee? Exactly. So it was definitely up and down, up and down, up and down. But that that up and down started to have more peaks and less, you know, dips and higher and higher. Hear this in the book where I had my knees actually cut out from underneath me, and it was like, okay. You know, very deeply hurt emotionally as well as a little bit physically, in the dojo. And there were times when one was really bad, and it was like I'm never going back.

And it thrust me back into the throes of PTSD for a while until I had a mental head smacking moment as I was walking across the, cement in the pool by the pool in Cabo San Lucas, and it was like, wait a minute. And so it was one of those head smacking moments, you know, the epiphanies. It's like, they cannot do this to me. And then I would go back, and I would just come back even stronger each time. And, of course, you know, maybe if you would talk to Mark or one of the guys, they'd say, oh, well, we did that intentionally. That's bull.

Yeah.

I've always been a fairly strong and resilient person. Yes. But this is a level that I never even knew existed, and I am incredibly protective. When a new woman comes into the dojo Mhmm. It's like, you know, she's mine. Let me work with her. And I'm like a mother hen just watching from across. It's like you would have to answer to me.

And one of the sweetest things might sound crazy, but one of the sweetest things that one of the guys said to me, and he was a black belt I used to work with a lot, very big man. And, you know, we became great friends. And he said to me one time, he says, he was doing a private with me. He says, you know, you scare a lot of people. And I said, really? And he said, yeah. And I said, you mean the guys? And he says, yeah. And I said, even the advanced ones? He goes, you scare some of the black belts. And I was just like, oh my god.

That's the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me.

Thank you. Thank you. So circling back to the women who weren't as kind to you in the dojo, and I experienced a very similar it was very similar for me in the fire service when I first got hired. It was very competitive. The women who'd been on the job were like, hey. We had to go through the shit. Now you're gonna go through the shit too Mhmm. Instead of holding out a hand to lift me up.

And it wasn't the case for all the women. But what I realized, I didn't wanna be like that. I didn't wanna put my stuff on the new women coming up in the fire service, so I I very intentionally decided their struggles are not my struggles. They're probably really different, especially the older I got and the younger they got. How can I help support you and be that protective, you know, mama bear? And it was pretty good for most of it. I still had a couple of prickly incidents with some of the women, but they were few and far between. So thank you for being that mentor and that guide because I I'm sure it was it's intimidating to walk into a dojo still today 20 plus years later.

Well, not for me.

Not for you, but for the new person.

Absolutely. And I understand that at a level that, you know, most people don't. I mean, I spent 2 years sitting in my car going, you can do this. You can do this. You can do this. And and trying to stop myself from just, you know, turning the ignition again and just driving home as fast as I could. But there was something about it didn't happen overnight, of course. Right.

But there was something about the art itself that is very, very seductive and very, it just pulls you in. Because, yes, we are doing, like, you know, punches, kicks, throws, all this stuff, but we're doing a lot of joint manipulations. We're doing a lot of mind games, which really works pretty well with me. I'm very good at that. And Mark would always tell me before I started training, he says, you know, women have their sensuality, and that really helps them in training. And I'm going, this guy really is nuts. But then I was like, oh my goodness. I can use my feminine wiles, and even the guys were helping me use that as a female warrior, and they taught me more than I think any other woman could.

Wow. I love that.

But now that I know that, I can help the other women that do come into the dojo, and I give them little what I call the ninja secrets. And a lot of them are my secrets because, you know, because they're mine, and they might not make sense to men anyhow. But it's really fun because I can just see them starting to change and change really quickly and see their warrior spirits start to rise, and it's so much fun. And, you know, I've won, like, a she's a white belt. She's been training now for a month. She's her son, you know, is one of our little young ninjas. And so she decided she wanted to train, and she was so scared and so terrified. And, you know, of course, I'm always there.

You know, she's tiny too and taking her under my wing. And I missed class last Friday, and she was just like, where is she? Oh, yeah. They're like, you know, oh, well well, don't worry. You're you're gonna be okay. And, you know, I said, it's probably a good thing that she did have one class when I wasn't there because now she knows she can do it. Mhmm.

That's so so many lessons, and I would love to talk to you forever about this because I know we've just scratched the surface on it. But I would love to know as we wind down this conversation, do you have a favorite piece of being a ninja that really resonates the most with you? That pull, Is there a particular piece that you can articulate that really is the this is why I keep doing it?

This might surprise you. The absolute sense of serenity and peace that I have, even when I get in my car, and, you know, we live in Denver. It's pretty crazy. You know, when I walk into a crowded space and my awareness, the ability to be able to read a crowd, read one person, it gives me an incredible sense of peace and serenity, and I love feeling like a girl. Just my little girly energy. You know? That female energy, that power is just you know, of course, you don't see it all the time, but when it comes out, when it needs to, Yeah.

That is such a beautiful answer, and I'm just I'm very curious even more now because as someone who has really struggled in a male dominated world to really find that femininity again and be that girly girl that I left behind so many years ago. I love hearing that. It's just a a very nice answer and the fact that you can kick anyone's ass in a room without thinking twice about it. I noticed when we met for coffee a couple weeks ago, you didn't seem to mind having your back to the door. Now it that just came to me, and I'm like, of course, she doesn't mind because she can take on anyone where we were.

Well and if you notice, my back was, toward the door, but my front was facing another door. Yes. Yes. There was an exit. Mhmm. And I don't know if you noticed this, but there's a lot of, reflection. Yes. In the glass, and there's a mirror, I believe, over the the, you know, the coffee bar or whatever.

So yeah. So and if you notice, when I was looking or you'd you'd see my eyes moving.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I did. And I just I'm just now putting it together because that's how slow I am. I'm like, oh, I was so safe there if anything happened. So

Yeah. Nobody was gonna steal your coffee.

Exactly. I was not worried about it. And I always joke, you know, because I'm a more athletic body type. I'd be really hard to kidnap anyway, but not with you.

I would never I would never let them.

I appreciate that. Cheryl, thank you so much. Now I will put all the information in our show notes. I guess my final question is what is one piece of sage ninja advice that you would like to leave with my listeners?

Okay. This is gonna surprise you too because I'm sure everybody's, like, sitting at the edge of their chair, and they've got a piece of paper and a pencil. They're gonna write this down. But it's surprisingly simple. Put your cell phone down. I truly believe that the invention of the cell phone was intended to be created for predators. Because when we walk around looking at our phone, that little, you know, 4 by 6 inches or whatever it is, however big your phone is, that little device is captivating your attention. Every bit of your awareness is going into that little device.

You're not paying attention to who's around you. But the people around you who want to do you harm, they're paying attention to you, and they're seeing who's gonna be an easy target. They're looking for an easy target. A distracted person is an easy target. Don't be that target. Put your cell phone down, turn it off, leave it in your purse, head up, practice looking around, practice your environmental awareness. That is the one thing that you can do. You will be well on your way to becoming a female warrior ninja queen.

That is great advice, and it forces you to be present and in the moment.

Absolutely.

Cheryl, thank you so much. I cannot wait to finish reading your book because it is truly captivating, and I'm so grateful that we have connected.

I am too, and thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really truly honored, and I cannot wait to have you on mine.

I look forward to it as well. Thank you. Another great conversation. Thank you for giving the valuable gift of your time and listening to The Fire Inside Her podcast. Speaking of value, one of the most common potholes we fall into on the journey to authenticity is not recognizing our value. So, I created a workbook. It's all about value. Head on over to thefireinsideher.com/value to get your free workbook that will help you remember your value.

Until next time, my friend.